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Bottoming Out

Oakland_tiny by Blez on in News

The A's are continuing their plunge.  And this is the time that tests us all.

Let's recap:

The team has committed a major league high 37 errors.

It's lost 13 of 16 now.

The team's hitting is finally starting to come around, but now the starting pitching is bottoming out.

Our closer, best set-up man (preinjury), our starting shortstop, our rookie-of-the-year candidate and our best starting pitcher are all injured or recently came off the DL.

Our two highest-paid players have done more to hurt the offense than help it.

So much of what this team was supposed to be has gone down the tubes, but in large part it's due to unexpected circumstances.  From the injuries to Harden, Calero, Dotel, Crosby and Swisher (especially Harden) to the drastic underperformance of Chavez, Kendall and Durazo.

Before the season started, the A's front office just asked that the young pitchers hit the zone and let the defense do the work behind them, but with 37 errors already the defense has faltered, which I think has also had an adverse effect on the pitchers like Blanton and Haren who are both now trying to nibble early in the count now and wind up behind.  That's a recipe for disaster.

Billy Beane knew that 2005 was going to be a challenging year in which everything would have to break just right for this team to be competitive.  This team could probably least afford many of the injuries, defensive lapses and team-wide offensive struggles if it was going to compete in the AL West in 2005.

Oh and one other thing to note, this team that was supposed to be a patient team has just two more walks than the supposedly free-swinging Minnesota Twins.  The team that was supposed to have a great on-base percentage is merely .319 team-wide and continues to be last in slugging percentage.

Basically, everything that could go wrong, has.  And that has led to our current position as bottom feeders.  

I thought the feeling of freefall was supposed to be fun.  All I feel is sick.

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Our Offensive Commitment
We need to change our philosophy from an "OBP empesis" hitter to SLG and AVG. AVG value/price may have dropped with the OBP hike in price.
"Pinata's promote violence against flamboyant animals"

by Zonis on May 25, 2005 9:43 PM PDT   0 recs

before I say anything meaningful
I have to say that I LOVE your quote
GO OAKLAND!!!

by LoveThemAs on May 25, 2005 9:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We need a New Manager
Yes, I agree that alot of bad things have happened, some like injuries that are clearly no-one's fault.  But I don't get Macha.  What's he doing?  Almost nothing.  The fact that the A's are at the bottom in so many categories, the high errors and the still anemic hitting reflect on the manager.  And his response is to barely jigger the batting order or the positions.  This alone sends the wrong message.
Frantic - I sometimes wish it was only about baseball . .

by frantic on May 25, 2005 9:59 PM PDT   0 recs

Yeah...
I was a bit after his time, but from what I've read, we need a guy like Billy Martin. Well, Martin minus the drinking and fighting. Guys like Macha and Howe have been too calm and quiet. We need a motivator.

by JLaff on May 26, 2005 7:36 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I could..
...be way off base here, but I doubt that Macha does much of anything without talking to Beane first. Somehow I see them talking on a regular basis - why wouldn't they - and, if so, this becomes a joint effort. BB will make his own mind up on player deals, but I believe he does talk to Macha about what is happening on the field. Bottom line: Big changes are coming, but I don't see Macha as one of them.

by doubleplayer on May 26, 2005 12:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"These are the times that try
men's souls."  Since I saw a lot of Shakespeare quotes during the debacle (I mean game), I thought I would throw in one of my own.

Though surely if the bard were an A's fine, he would have included all of our female fans, whose souls are also being tried.

I can't really add to Blez's comments.  I didn't expect us to hit the playoffs this year,,,,but when the Angels started out so weak I hoped it might turn out to be a weak division, and perhaps,,,,,
I could go on, but I won't.  I'll just drink a little more wine.

PS: for all you English lit and American History majors, yes I know that it was Thomas Paine and not our beloved William that wrote these lines.  I just wanted to see how many people read the whole post.

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 9:59 PM PDT   0 recs

OK so I was saying
I feel sick, too. One consolation: we can only go up from here. Even if we stay at the bottom for a while, we'll go up eventually.

The injured will heal.

The sucky will un-suck or else be traded.

Just don't give up hope! Our team needs us.

GO OAKLAND!!!

by LoveThemAs on May 25, 2005 10:01 PM PDT   0 recs

You put it well, Blez
"Beane knew everything needed to break right for this team to be competitive." That is true, and it does NOT mean Beane "knew the A's wouldn't be competitive this year."

I get so irritated with the notion that Beane somehow lied, or was naive, or that fans were in any way naive for the hope that things might "break right"--as they have for the Whitesox and Orioles.

This team, built more for '06 and '07 than '05, needed above-average health and decent productivity from the players with the best career numbers, and it got exactly the opposite.

Not because "smart people" (i.e., cynical and chronically negative people) knew it all along, but because sometimes you get a thunderstorm the very year you can't retile the roof.

It's incredibly frustrating, but baseball is consummately unpredicable--and that's why the games are worth watching. Youneverknow what you're going to see, and if you leave youneverknow what you're going to miss.

The A's will probably get back in this thing. Because they're good enough? No, because it's the last thing I expect.

Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:02 PM PDT   0 recs

fair enough...
I agree with you on the whole Beane thing.  I've been shocked at the number of people who are blaming all of this on Beane and such.  These things happen, and we just have to hope they can gel as a team and turn this thing around.  Get some confidence back.
A's fan for life!!!

by ZeroIndulgence on May 25, 2005 10:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

People weren't
naive who thought "things might break right" at the beginning of the season ..... however people are naive who insist things will turn around anytime soon.
Nico, I know you're frustrated ... I am too. But you gotta admit some of the AN'ers saw this coming loooooong before the "more positive" posters.
I think it foolish to blame Beane as well, but this team has gone from bad to just flat out embarassing. This is one of the worst baseball teams (ok -- simply measuring the season up to this point) in recent memory.
In any league.
At any level.
VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on May 25, 2005 10:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It's one thing
not to be surprised that the A's would struggle and not contend, but it's another to "know" it. It was not knowable; those who understand baseball more make "all-knowing" predictions less. Maybe the A's had a 1 in 5 chance: .200 hitters get hits all the time. (Even Kendall!)

I will always maintain that if the A's had enjoyed average health, they would have (roughly) split their first 40 games. And that's WITH Kendall and Chavy tanking--a normal "who knew?" kind of quirk.

The trades stopped the A's from being good enough to go 25-15. Injuries stopped them from being  from being good enough to go 20-20. And 20-20 would have given the A's a pretty bright outlook for making a run, and having some fun, a la 1999.

Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:24 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh, and for the record,
I've been watching the A's since 1980, and I'd be hard pressed to name 5 stretches where I recall the A's playing worse.

This is not pretty.

Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreeing to some extent with Vacafan
It wasn't naive to hope that things might break right, but it was naive to expect that they would do so.  This admission that we needed everything to break right this season in order to be competitive is a relatively new admission--I believe the stance during the offseason was that we needed everything to break right to win the division, but we almost certainly would be competitive.  And that was perhaps a little naive.

I know, I know.  I'm a cynical, smartass, pain-in-the-ass, chronically negative, person.
Irritating my peers since 1977.

by rubin sierra on May 25, 2005 10:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

the injuries are the wild card
No one expected the team to disintegrate physically.  The debate was over whether the new folk would play well,  whether Kendall would switch quickly, whether Zito and Harden would pitch to their potential, whether Kotsay, Ruby and Hatty would hold on to their good play from last year.

People who think the team would have been this bad without the key injuries really need to present an argument for that before gloating.

And for the record, I predicted a long time ago that the season would be unpredictable. :)

by Apricot on May 25, 2005 10:38 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

my feelings about the situation
has all to do with the chemistry thats gone; we all know even the Big Three suffered from lack of run support, and these starters have had it worse for the most part. Plus, what we have in the pitchers from those trades isn't all THAT bad - but what we lost was a key part of the team chemistry; the leadership; the swagger.

37 errors, leading the league??? This is the biggest surprise to me. Where does the bad outfield play come from? Scutaro last year had a .998 fielding percentage, so I dont see a major trade off defensively not having Crosby in there. Hatteberg, Chavez... no excuses for those guys.

and Base Running! Offense and defense; do the A's need a philosophy on base-running, or can they just DO IT; I can't stand it when everyone knows the runner is going but our pitcher. We can't steal, we leave RISP, ... how about a squeeze bunt, for old times sake?

The only blame I put on Macha is that he needs to show confidence and where he stands with the lineup. "who's playing 2nd today? who's in left field today? why not start Melhuse?" The lack of chemistry stems from a lot of guys not knowing where they stand on the team, and I'm positive thats got to put stress on what is normally a stress-free, fun-loving clubhouse. I think Beane needs to make some drastic moves sending people down and let Macha know that THESE are your 2005 Oakland A's.

I have to apologize, I'm overly emotional after such an embarrassing loss. But I am in disbelief at this point.

Lets Go Oakland Rivercats!

by popcornjames on May 26, 2005 10:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Injuries, bah
The Angels are currently lacking:

Their best player, Vladimir Guerrero.

Their best starting pitcher, Kelvim Escobar.

Their best relief pitcher, Francisco Rodriguez.

Geurrero is worth four Crosbys, Escobar is no slouch, and I'll take K-Rod over Dotel, thankusmuchibus.

Injuries happen.

by Gitz on May 26, 2005 10:27 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

good point
but I think everyone would have agreed the Angels had a lot more depth than we do. If the Yankees lose A-Rod and Rivera, I think they can still win more games than we can. The only part of our team coming in with depth was the bullpen, and it's the only part that's survived the injury plague. For now.

by Apricot on May 26, 2005 10:50 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Angels
First injuries happen, but lets be realistic Vlad and K-Rod just went on the DL it's not like they have been playing without them for the whole season or even a week at this point.  Lets see how they survive them before we give them too much credit.
ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on May 26, 2005 11:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The A's
weren't exactly playing above .500 pre-injuries..crosby was the only main injury initially.

by oakwin2004 on May 26, 2005 11:12 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Injuries
Sorry, I am not blaming injuries for our record.  I think the major problem is that just about everyone offensively has under performed. Crosby would have only made a minor diference

All I was pointing out is it is hard to give the Angels credit without putting it in context.  Vlad has only been gone 5 games they are 2-3 without him and have score 12 runs in those 5 games.  If he misses an extended time I do not see them winning the west.  

Though injuries happen they can effect who makes the playoffs and who goes home.

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on May 26, 2005 11:31 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The big problem...
is that the Angels (a) have money, and (b) aren't stupid.

Which beats the Beane set of (a) having no money, and (b) being not stupid.

I love Billy, but for a while there, he was competing in the division with guys that I'd have loved to have in my fantasy league. ("OK, I'm going to spend half my salary on a shortstop!" "Oh, yeah? I'm going to overpay for a 3B from Colorado!")

"Yucky Head Bad Guy!" - my 5-year-old daughter to Manny Ramirez. She got ice cream immediately afterward.

by DMtShooter on May 26, 2005 11:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Need everything to break right
I disagree, I do not think that the A's needed everything to break right to be competitive.  

But the problem is that nothing broke right and in fact everything has pretty much broke as bad as it could.  You lose Crosby.  Your bullpen is supposed to be the strength, You lose Dotel and Callero and Cruz starts out just awful.  Kendal and Chavez have hit worse then they have ever hit in their careers.   Durazo and Hatteburg are not even within 90% of their last year numbers.  Your ace pitcher is missing starts, Meyers was not ready for the show.  

I really believe that if the offense produced and the bullpen was fully healthy that this team would have been competitive.  

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on May 26, 2005 10:58 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Despite the pain...
i feel in watching the individual games, I feel just fine about the future. Why shouldn't i? In Billy I trust motherfuckers!!!!!
"Don't you play the flute, Huddy?"

by capper3 on May 25, 2005 10:05 PM PDT   0 recs

YEAH!!!
Awesome attitude
GO OAKLAND!!!

by LoveThemAs on May 25, 2005 10:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yup! :)
but please don't let us be the 2004 mariners this season!!!

by gotgreen on May 25, 2005 10:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

.:cross your fingers:.
"That take gave me the chills! I got the chills right now!" -Swish

by hotz4harden on May 25, 2005 10:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually
We would have a greater chance of being the 2004 Mariners if BB had not made all the moves he did during the offseason. The Mariners were bad because they got old in a hurry and their management was too short sighted to make corrections for it. On the contrary, we are doing poorly because we're too young.

As you can now see from the Mariners, the management had to front a boatload of money to keep the Mariner ship from sinking, but they are still not a legitimately contending team. We, on the other hand, will be a much stronger team next year, and even more so for the next few years after that.

by almostreggie on May 26, 2005 11:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

All our struggles are intertwined...
Our offense started the season (and has continued) in a hitting slump.  This probably led to a feeling of either urgency or stress.  This would lead to our defensive struggles.  Our offensive problems are in our players' head and probably lead to not full focus on the field.  constant failure leads to a feeling of failure among everyone and filters into everything.  If we were to start hitting better and more consistantly, our defense would probably come around as well, and winning also breeds winning.  

The A's need A-rod's shrink.  Someone to snap them out of their funk.  This "shrink" could be a player, manager, or someone else who can help our try to get over our recent failures.  Sports players need to be able to shrug off struggles and failures and get a new outlook on the game.

As a fan, it's been very hard to watch the A's fall apart so completely.  But, as I used to play many sports (and still do to some extent), I can understand how the breakdown could happen.  Something needs to click with this team.  I dunno what it is (if I did, I'd be working for the A's right now).  But we kind of have to look at the problems as a whole.  When one thing turns around, the rest should too.

So, hold out hope A's fans.  Maybe not for this season, and certainly not for contention, but for our guys to shake this feeling of failure off and get back to playing ball like they know how to.

A's fan for life!!!

by ZeroIndulgence on May 25, 2005 10:08 PM PDT   0 recs

Speaking of pressing,
I noticed something on Tuesday. The A's looked great the first couple innings, scoring 3 in the 1st and consistently hitting balls hard. After Phelps' HR put TB ahead for the first time, the A's came up and immediately started swinging at a lot of first pitches, chasing balls out of the zone, and reverting back to many of the hitting-approach problems of the season-to-date.

In other words, they started pressing as soon as they fell behind, even though they had 6 innings to make up one run against a poor starter and a mediocre bullpen.

That's pressing; it comes from being human and it's a tough nut to crack.

Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Instead of A-Rod's shrink...
...can we just get A-Rod? He makes enough money, maybe he could do some charity work at DH in Oakland on his days off maybe? Eh, just a thought?

by JLaff on May 25, 2005 11:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The feeling's mutual..
It is hard to watch this team play so badly. No one could've imagined all the injuries and the huge slumps that we are mired in, like quicksand...we can't seem to pull out. I believe this A's team in not a bad team, that they are capable (right now) of so much more.
 That said, the bottom line, rock bottom line is 17-28.It is hard not to wonder "what if" - but that's a diary in itself..probably many.
 Keep the faith, Blez..and AN is going to be right there with you..kudos to all the positive posts here...hey, we could be way over .500 come AN DAY!!!

by LongTimeFan on May 25, 2005 10:15 PM PDT   0 recs

Two suggestions for more excitement in A's-Land
1) Stop jerking around with Byrnes--make him our everyday left-fielder and stop pinch-hitting for him.  Have him leadoff, too, and give him the green light to steal bases.
The A's are dull, they need a shot in the arm, and who better to give it to them?  As an aside, it drives me crazy the way Macha has treated him this year--platooning him with Kielty and Thomas and Watson while letting Swisher go every day.  It's insulting after everything Byrnes has done for the A's in years past.  (I know, perhaps it's Macha's belated revenge for Byrnes not touching home plate).

2) Sign Ricky Henderson.  In years past, Billy could say that the A's were making a playoff run and needed their roster to be filled with the best players available.  But now, the A's need Ricky.  And not just for bored fans, but for the players as well.  The kids on that team are surrounded by kids, so much so that the environment may seem minor-league.  Playing with a Hall-of-Famer might do a little to alleviate that.  A very-eccentric Hall-of-Famer, but a Hall-of-Famer nonetheless.  And Ricky needs us to hit his 300th homer.  

by rubin sierra on May 25, 2005 10:17 PM PDT   0 recs

ricky to a young ball club
from your comments: "Playing with a Hall-of-Famer might do a little to alleviate that.  A very-eccentric Hall-of-Famer, but a Hall-of-Famer nonetheless"

IMHO, this is a very bad idea for a young impressionable ball club.

admittedly I wasn't around during the A's hey days with Ricky so I don't have your loyalty.  but this makes my shudder about the impact of this on the next few years.  kind of like the A's bringing Barry Bonds over to DH for the A's.  

real bad karma

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 10:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Rickey is NOT Barry!!
...so I can't agree with you that it would be bad karma.

He has a terrific work ethic, I doubt he's juiced, and although he has always been a "hot dog" he has backed it up with phenomenal play.  I think he could mentor the young players very well, and continue to walk & steal bases, not to mention drawing fans.  

I would love it.

It will never happen.  BB has a bug up his butt about Rickey, IMHO.

by Batgal on May 26, 2005 10:59 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I Mostly Agree
I agree with Rubin Sierra.
1st: No more jerking around with Byrnes.  I think we can be sure he'll finally be traded away with Dotel for something.  I think it's about time.  I know we all love byrnes for his constant sprint and occasional highlight worthy playing, but I have never been a fan.  The reason Byrnes is sitting is the reason he always sits. It's because he's not good enough to be an everyday player.  He's good for 60-80 games, then opposing pitching figures him out and his work ethic can no longer balance his lack of true talent/

2nd: Sign Ricky.  Ricky would put butts in seats, which is far more important right nww than even starting pitching or hitting with players on base.  We need a new stadium, and for that we need ticket sales.  Plus maybe Ricky would take his return to the A's as a chance to retire, and what better place to do it then Oakland?

by AsFan on May 26, 2005 12:15 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll agree with this...
but for other reasons in #1.  Yeah, he's uptempo enough to give us a shot in the arm, but if he can get hot it will raise his trade stock.  I'd love to see the A's steel more bases and try to make things happen.  It couldn't hurt, they're already playing about as bad as possible.

And, yes, I'd love to see Ricky get one more season as an A so he can retire happy.  And he couldn't hurt if he came in and played hard.

A's fan for life!!!

by ZeroIndulgence on May 26, 2005 1:51 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Chavez-very mixed feelings
I have very mixed feelings on Chavy.  On the negative side, he clearly has not lived up to the expectations that a lot of people (including BB and A's management generally) had for him.  Horrible start to the year hitting--worse than horrible.  

Can't seem to go with the pitch when he should--a pitch on the outside corner that is, particularly from lefties. (interesting how last year when he was coming back from the hand injury he seemed to do this IMHO).

Horrible clutch hitting, that really sticks out batting 3rd.

Where are all these errors for our 4 time Golden Glover coming from?

No leadership!!  From not being behind homeplate signalling to Byrnes to slide in that horrible 3rd game loss vs. Boston in '03, and not yelling at Byrnes to go back and tag home, to many, many other examples.

On the other hand, how did the A's really expect this guy to be a leader?  He's clearly a wonderful guy, liked by lots of his teammates, but lacking in self confidence.  Did we just hope he would turn into a leader despite evidence to the contrary?

and his bat, he's a .275 batting average, with better OB%, and OPS.  And a wonderful ability to make great D plays.  But was that worth $11 million, 20% of our payroll?  I'd say bad bet.

But this is not chavey's fault.  he's giving it his best.  I feel sorry for his "deer in the headlights" look at times.

I think we just have to admit that we have a solid ballplayer here, that likely should bat 6 or 7 (change if he proves differently), is not the team leader (unless he proves differently--and I don't think he will), but it's not his fault that we paid him $11 million.  He's not dogging it.  So in the venacular, to A's management and A's fans--WEAR IT!!  Just recognize reality and make the best of it.

If we do that, Erik will either play well at the level of expectation, or he'll surprise us all, over time.

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 10:32 PM PDT   0 recs

Chavy's leadership
...hasn't been an issue with Billy, I don't think.  That's not why they signed him; they signed him for his stellar defense (MIA this season) & his bat (showing signs of re-emerging.)
We won't talk about his potential.  :-(

I don't think the concept of "clubhouse leader" means anything to BB--if you were to ask him, I'll bet he'd say the idea is overrated.

by Batgal on May 26, 2005 11:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

In other words, alamedaman,
(if the A's could afford it): invest in a "go to" hitter and you'll get 2-for-1 for your money, because you'll also realize your return on Chavy.

(Like if you invested in a top-notch closer, you might also get $4.5mil value out of Dotel as an overpowering set-up man.)

Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:36 PM PDT   0 recs

yep
some players are great second bananas. David Robinson, Scottie Pippen from another sport.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is the year they're going to splurge. I suspect the front office doesn't believe in hitter-protection or closer-protection. (Maybe they do believe the second.)

by Apricot on May 25, 2005 10:40 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Roger Maris...
To point out another ex-Athletic.  Second banana to the Mick, who was named after another ex-Athletic.
"First of all, I'm not calm about it. Every time they lose, I freak out." - Andy Painter

by secret ASian man on May 25, 2005 10:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Change the lineup time?
We have been unsuccessful for 45 games with Chavez in the number 3 hole. In the game of baseball you have your clutch rbi guy hit in this spot. Unbelievably our manager has continued, night after night, to put Chavez in this key spot. Can't count how many rally's he has killed with strikeouts, dp's and popup's. Chavez being in this critical spot has killed our weak offense all year and yet the manager fails to recognize it.
Why is this same manager unable to go out and argue a call last night when Sarloss missed the bag? Can't he stick up for our team like we expect the manager to? Would Francona stand in the dugout chewing his gum and scratching his head? What about Scosicia? I think not.
 What this is leading to is our total lack of direction, leadership and coaching for a young team by its' manager. 45 games is enough.
This is 1979 all over again.
Morada Mudshark

by Morada Mudshark on May 25, 2005 10:40 PM PDT   0 recs

no Nico
Isn't it more living with your mistake since you can't change it?  I'm working on an analogy to use here.  I mean we spent $11 million for a $5 million product.  but what fool is going to pay us $11 million now?

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 10:43 PM PDT   0 recs

Well, my point was
that as second banana, Chavy would put up solid .275/30/100 Gold Glove numbers worthy of $11 mil in today's market. As top banana, he looks like he wants to split, and it's not a-peeling to watch.
Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

so you think Chavez is dogging
 it?  Maybe, but I don't feel like I've seen that.  I think he may be pressing.  he's not a leader, he can't live up to the billing, and we just made a mistake in our valuation of this guy.

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 11:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No, no, no,
por favor, don't mistake my (lame) puns for serious evaluations. Chavy's not dogging it; he's just having a woof time right now.
Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 11:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ah, je comprends, mais qu'est-ce que vous
faites avec Chavez?  pardon the horrible french.  but what else would you do with Chavez?

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 11:13 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

God, the A's are the like Warriors...
pre-Baron Davis.  We need a Baron Davis.
"First of all, I'm not calm about it. Every time they lose, I freak out." - Andy Painter

by secret ASian man on May 25, 2005 10:53 PM PDT   0 recs

Instead
we get a barren bullpen.
Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

BA-ZING!
Nice one, Nico.
"First of all, I'm not calm about it. Every time they lose, I freak out." - Andy Painter

by secret ASian man on May 25, 2005 10:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks
You know your team's in trouble when you're wishing to be more like the Warriors organization. Gaak!!! G'nite.
Nico

by Nico on May 25, 2005 10:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

How true
"First of all, I'm not calm about it. Every time they lose, I freak out." - Andy Painter

by secret ASian man on May 25, 2005 11:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

we need a major shake up now!!!!!
we need to fire the coaching staff....trade some players, bring up dan johnson, get rid of hatteberg...no power.....bring up jairo garcia..with his 98 mph fastball.....get rid of ginter ellis...bring up mike rouse....trade kendall to the national league, and durazo.... we need the new owners to sack up and dig into their big money...we have the 3rd richest owners in baseball... Gap owner son fisher is loaded....spend some money god damn it..this team has no heart...no will to win...it is terrible watching this team play...tampa bay is killing us, how is that possible?????????????  we need to move to san jose, we will sell out every game!!!!! fuck you giants...give up the stupid territory rights. you flaming butt pirates!!!!!!!!!!! lets shake it up billy beane...i trust you!!!!!!!!!!

by jaacee007 on May 25, 2005 11:07 PM PDT   0 recs

Interesting idea
Get rid of all our Major League players and just bring up the entire AAA team, while moving to a new city. Gosh, why didn't Billy think of that? I hope he's reading this thread. . .

by el generico on May 26, 2005 12:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"I trust you!!!!"
If you change everything you've been doing and do what I say instead!
The next time I slap a guy's ass, can we all just assume it's because I wish I was a baseball player?

by devo on May 26, 2005 1:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A Very Simple Proposal
And I ain't gloating because i thought they'd win 90 games. i am as flabbergasted as anyone that they're this bad.

But along with a lot of other things, i think Beane should suck it up and deal Chavez. I think he can find a couple of takers who will still buy into the potential. I think the 11 million drain for a player who will never be the anchor we need is a killer-- I'd rather get a couple of real promising prospects and play Ginter there for the rest of this season. and consider switching crosby there if Quintanilla is ready next year or soon thereafter.

I mean if it's the San Diego thing and BB not wanting to admit a huge mistake, well then BB is not doing his duty.

The guy will never be the player we wish he was; and that realization will probably drive his performance down further. Get him out of here while we still can.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on May 25, 2005 11:28 PM PDT   0 recs

You don't even know what you're saying, do you?
Do you have any idea how unrealistic this idea is?

by grover on May 25, 2005 11:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

why??
trades like this are made all the time.

Somebody in contention or semi-contention who has the money would think about the move.

How in love with Crede are the White Sox?? What about the orioles, who could easily shift Mora to DH?

Or the Red Sox who could give us the Greek God of walks and put Mueller on the bench?

Or Florida who realizes Lowell may be on his last legs?

You don't think a deal could be made? Of course it could.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on May 25, 2005 11:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

contrary to what I said below,
if you did get the right deal for chavez, or course take it.  It's just pretty unusual that when your company's earning are down 40%, you're going to get a wonderful offer.  It just doesn't normally happen.

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 11:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course a deal COULD be made
That doesn't mean it would be any good. Chavez is playing poorly right now, that drops his trade value. He just started the 1st year of a new mulit-year contract. If traded he can demand his release from the new team and seek a bigger contract elsewhere. This would be almost guaranteed to happen should he post his typical numbers at the end of the season, because he gave the A's a "hometown" discount. This also lowers his trade value.

In short Beane would get low-balled for Chavez, and Heaven help the organization once the word got out that Eric was on the block.

by grover on May 25, 2005 11:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

hey, that was my point. It's not the
right time to deal chavez.  am I misinterpretting your comment?

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 11:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes and No
It's hard to trade a player in the middle, or in this case, at the start of a multi-year contract. If Chavez ends up having a typical year, or even an above average year, it is all but certain that he will demand to have his contract renegotiated or get released. So the team trading for Chavez would get to low-ball Beane.

by grover on May 25, 2005 11:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You may be right, but that's
news to me.  I'll have to look into baseball contracts a little more.  I thought the power of the current contract was a little stronger than you imply.

by alamedaman on May 26, 2005 12:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

According to MLB rules
I don't have the exact wording in front of me...

But any player traded in the midst of a multi-year deal has the right to demand a trade or his release from his new team after the first year. So if Oakland were to trade Chavez in 2005 (the 1st year of his 6 year contract) he'd be able to leave KC (for example) after the season IF he chose to do so.

by grover on May 26, 2005 12:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

thanks, seriously, but two questions
first, I think we are still in agreement here, in that this is not the right time to trade Chavez.  (my comment lower in the sequence was more clear on that.  what I was saying in the comment you responded to, is there is that occassional situation where another team just needs your guy, and is willing to pay over market value, because, for example, they are shooting the moon this year--and if you found that guy, of course deal Chavez.)
but second, I would like to have a better understanding of these trade intracacies.  Your comments ring true--have you just picked this up in general knowledge, or are you referring to a document that lays this out, and if so, where are they?.  (this is not a sarcastic question, i'm really interested)

by alamedaman on May 26, 2005 12:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

trade of Chavez
Th fact that Oakland would be shopping him would imply that the A's feel he is worth less  then his contract.  So any trading team would not care if he opted out of it, and unless he really picks it up he would end up like Nomar (turning down an offer worth more then he can get as a free agent)  If he has value it would be for a team who wants to win now and is willing to live with his long term deal in the event he sticks around. (but would not care if he walks either)

Personally I think he is going to have a huge 2nd half.  The question is if he will always be a type of player who plays good for 100 out of the 162.  I can not remeber when he put together a complete season.  I think where he is one of the parts it is ok but where he is the focal point of the offense and defacto team leader we need a player to perform throughout the whole year and not be ice cold for 2 months.

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on May 26, 2005 10:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting to think about ...
Perhaps the Mets

for a package of David Wright, Yusmeiro Petit, and Lastings Milledge

or the Red Sox

for Hanley Ramirez, the Greek God of Walks, and Jon Papelbon.

The Braves?

for Andy Marte, Kyle Davis, and ??

The Rockies have the pieces to make it work, but what about the salaries?

for Ian Stewart and Jeff Francis

The Angels could give us a good package, but would we be willing to make it happen?

for Dallas McPherson, Erick Aybar, and Steve Shell

The next time I slap a guy's ass, can we all just assume it's because I wish I was a baseball player?

by devo on May 26, 2005 1:39 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

buy low, sell high.
this would be the absolute worst time to deal chavez.  he is playing so far below his previous track record, and his potential.  don't use this philosophy on your stock portfolio--or otherwise trust social security to take care of you (heh, heh).  dealing chavez now is buy high, sell low.

by alamedaman on May 25, 2005 11:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

you're wrong
GMs are much more sophisticated than that.

Think about rotisserie-- anyone knows that Chavez is more likely to hit 290 the rest of the way than the career 280 hitter whom